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Markets, Policy and New Political Leadership:
Charting the Path Forward
Chris Hyzy
Welcome to our post-election conversation: Markets, Policy and New Political Leadership: Charting the Path Forward. I'm Chris Hyzy, Chief Investment Officer for Merrill and Bank of America Private Bank. The United States just emerged from an historic election cycle, one which saw the re-election of Donald Trump to the White House and Republicans winning majorities in both houses of Congress. As with any change in political leadership, we can expect to see a number of shifts in policy priorities.
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Chris Hyzy
Chief Investment Officer
Merrill and Bank of America Private Bank
Chris Hyzy
What might all of this mean for the markets now and in the coming year? And are there steps you could take now to prepare? Joining me to discuss all of this and more are Savita Subramanian, head of U.S. Equity and quantitative strategy, B of A Global Research, and Jim Carlisle, Public Policy Executive for Bank of America.
Welcome to you both.
Savita Subramanian
Great to be here.
Chris Hyzy
I'm going to start with you, Jim. We're sitting here today. Election's over with. We didn't know we were going to have this certainty, or at least most of it. Take us through between now all the way into inauguration. What are the major developments that you see?
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Jim Carlisle
Public Policy Executive
Bank of America
Jim Carlisle
Sure. Thanks. First, the current Congress, they're not done yet. And there are two things that they have to get done. One, they've got to fund the government. There's a stopgap funding bill that expires on the 20th, and they've got to deal with how to fund government programs for the remainder of the fiscal year that ends September 30.. Under one school of thought, they do another stopgap into early 2025, and then Republicans with unified control can figure out sort of how they want.
Chris Hyzy
From that point.
Jim Carlisle
To finish it up for that point forward. Alternatively, there's maybe a growing school of thought that says maybe the new Republican Congress and a new president in the White House, they don't want to be dealing with this old business. So maybe they go ahead and try to, like, clear the decks, pass a funding bill, taking, uh, spending through the end of the fiscal year.
Jim Carlisle
And then second, there is an annual defense authorization bill, and that usually is done late in the year, and it's must-pass. And so it often becomes a Christmas tree for unrelated provisions. What we're seeing right now is because Republicans feel like they can write their own version of legislation next year. Things like, you know, how you regulate digital assets.
Jim Carlisle
They're legislative proposals that have been, you know, developed on a bipartisan basis. But Republicans are beginning to think maybe we'd rather do that, uh, and not have to compromise in a new, in a new year with the new administration. Maybe a crypto-friendlier administration. And then energy permitting reform, where we saw a lot of bipartisan, uh, development over the last month or two.
Jim Carlisle
Um, they, uh, there was, I think, a lot of, um, optimism that you might see a deal get done by the end of the year. We're thinking that becomes a 2025 issue as well. And then Congress comes back, uh, January 3rd. Uh, they will need to, the House will need to elect a speaker. Um, we're not anticipating right now the drama that we've seen, uh, in, you know, over the past year or so. but they'll do that. And then, uh, we're also going to see over the coming days, coming weeks, uh, you know, the additional drips of who, president elect Trump wants in his cabinet and even beginning to fill in down below cabinet level positions.
Chris Hyzy
And that also includes the change that we've already heard to the speakership as well.
Jim Carlisle
That's right.
Chris Hyzy
So still a lot of, uh, certainty as we sit here, but still as we are used to, a lot of uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, Savita, uh, the markets surprise us all the time.
Savita Subramanian
Indeed.
Chris Hyzy
But you've talked about the profit cycle for a while. You were early in the stage of what we're seeing unfold right now. Take us through now into next year of what you believe are the main components that can continue to drive and not necessarily continue to take the market to new highs, but just confirm what we're, what we're seeing unfold right now.
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Savita Subramanian
Head of U.S. Equity Strategy & Quantitative Strategy
BofA Global Research
Savita Subramanian
Yeah. No, I think it's a great way to frame the question is less about I'm not talking about the index level, but it's more about the underlying corporate earnings, uh, that we're seeing strong support for. And we saw the seeds sown for this, you know, a couple of years ago. And to your point on productivity, I think one of the big surprises to me and to a lot of investors is that we got through a period of rampant inflation volatility.
At some point, CPI was 9%. Uh, we saw a lot of shifting trends in rates and inflation. Yet corporate America managed to maintain fairly stable margins. And I think this speaks to the fact that companies have been using efficiency tools as a way to navigate a very, um, volatile rates and inflation backdrop. On top of that, we've seen reshoring initiatives that started, probably at the beginning of the 2010s, um, and have only accelerated since the 2018 tariff wars.
So we're now at a point where half of the economic activity that U.S. companies used to do with China, uh, has shifted to other areas of the world, uh, Vietnam, Mexico, Canada. But the idea of 60% tariffs, which we'll talk about, uh, is probably less dramatically negative than the headline number would suggest for China tariffs.
Chris Hyzy
As you said, we're going to talk a little bit about tariffs. We're going to talk about potential impact to earnings or other measures. I want to stick on this point about profits. And we're now seeing that broaden out to others.
Savita Subramanian
Yes.
Chris Hyzy
Not just the mega-cap tech.
Savita Subramanian
Beyond the mega-cap tech
Chris Hyzy
That's right.
Savita Subramanian
Yes, it's very exciting for us to behold. But the S&P 493, ex-Magnificent Seven, is back in the black. They are posting earnings, positive earnings growth. Last year. This was a cohort of the market, a big cohort of the market that was in a profits recession. So, we are seeing that broadening trend, real time.
Chris Hyzy
Yeah. And you know, we always look for signs or confirmation as to why certain parts of the market have outperformed. And it made sense when that narrow part, given the fact that the rest were not performing and now the rest are performing, fundamentally speaking. And here we are and we're watching the financial sector outperform. We're watching small caps begin to outperform and most people are talking about it being for what new policies are becoming.
But you talked about this rotation and this rebalancing. Do you see that continuing?
Savita Subramanian
I do. I mean, I think it depends on a lot of factors, like for example, interest rates, I think, are the potential governor on growth. So, if we see a big rate shock, which I think is, you know, the the fear that many investors have under a more inflationary backdrop that could quell this, uh, positive trajectory for some areas of the market.
Um, but so far, what we've got are three pretty pro-cyclical events taking place right now. One, the Fed has embarked on a cutting cycle. Two, profits are accelerating as we speak. And three, we have a red sweep, which is arguably more pro-cyclical. And, um, you know, I think is is a backdrop which is relatively friendly to large businesses from both a regulatory and a tax perspective.
Chris Hyzy
Yeah, that's a great point. So let's go back to you, Jim. Let's talk a little bit about post-inauguration, first hundred days. What are the major focal points?
Jim Carlisle
So, I think two for the new administration. One, is working with Congress on, tax legislation. So the 2017 tax cuts expire at the end of the year, the end of 2025. These are tax cuts for individuals. Uh, absent action, top rate goes back to 39.6%. All the rate brackets reset. Lots of other, um, tax provisions go away or get or benefits get reduced.
Neither party wants to see that happen across the board. But Republicans are planning to write a budget reconciliation bill early in 2025. The magic of a reconciliation bill is that can't be filibustered in the Senate. So you can pass it with a bare majority. Um, but there are restrictions around what you can do in a reconciliation bill. If you extend all of the 2017 act tax cuts, you're looking at a price tag of around 4 trillion dollars for individuals and their sticker shock around that number.
Jim Carlisle
We still do have some deficit hawks, and there is a continuing and maybe growing question. You know, what is the debt load that the markets can handle? And no one knows the answer to that question. So, there is sort of a presumption that, okay, red sweep all the tax cuts get get extended permanently. Um, I think it's going to be a different story.
Uh, number one, they're going to have to figure out how much deficit, um, addition to the deficit they can handle, they can stomach. And that's the first thing you have to do right out of the, right out of the gate. Because to get to a reconciliation bill, you have to pass a budget resolution that specifies the impact of that bill on the deficit.
So they got to pick a number. And that could be an ugly, um, exercise. And it's not going to be easy because the margins are very thin. And you've got to bring along nearly every House Republican. We're not anticipating Democratic votes for a Republican drafted bill right now. And the Senate margins are tight, tight as well. So there's discussion about getting this done in the first 100 days. But they got to make a lot of very difficult policy decisions and political decisions to get to a final bill.
Chris Hyzy
And market impact to that. We'll have to wait and see. The 4 trillion is a big number. That doesn't also include the fact that there could be a lowering of the corporate tax rate as well on top of that.
Jim Carlisle
Right.
Chris Hyzy
And then there's talk of tariffs paying for some of that. But there's estimates that tariff impact or at least revenues coming into the U.S. government would be in the hundreds of billions versus the trillions.
So, Savita, unpack that really complex equation that Jim just unfolded there.
Savita Subramanian
Yes. It is complex
Chris Hyzy
Just thinking about it today. How does the market take this in stride?
Savita Subramanian
Well, look, I think there is the other component of debt to GDP, which is GDP. And I think there is, you know, some potential that we see what's happened in prior cycles of higher debt burden for the government, which is GDP growth accelerates faster than debt growth. And in fact, that's precisely what we've seen in the last two problematic periods where debt to GDP got to dangerous levels.
So I think we need to kind of factor in, there is an offset to the just the debt burden, which is the fact that the U.S. is on a path towards growing at a more healthy clip than what we saw during the 2010s when we were in this period of, of zero interest rate policy of struggling, uh, global, uh, growth on an economic backdrop.
So I think, you know, we're at a point where we could see the GD -- the U.S. -- grow its way out of this. That's one offset. Um, other offsets are the idea that, you know, if we do see an unloosing of, oil supply that could serve as a benefit to consumers. So if you think about the percentage of wallet that lower income consumers are spending on oil and gas today, any alleviation in the price of oil transports, heating, driving, etc. would be a boon to consumption, which is, again, another driver of GDP and another way to offset, uh, debt burdens.
It is complicated, though, and I think that, you know, we've seen the market run up on the positives under this administration. And I think there are a lot of positives, but the devil is always in the details. Um, again, I would point out, though, that corporate America is quite adept at navigating policy changes. In fact, you know, I'm a quant, so we run all of these quantitative analyzes. And what we found is that tax rates, you know, tariffs, policy changes matter for certain areas of the market. But they don't necessarily matter as much as one might expect. Um, so I think that's one way to think about the next 12 months. We might see more volatility around headline risk around, you know, what is posited early on.
Maybe the bad news comes first. Maybe we hear more tariff talk which investors see as growth negative, rather than tax cut talk which investors see as growth positive.
Jim Carlisle
Another thing they'll be working on besides tax policy and trying to figure out where they want to go on tariffs, um, and that's going to be maybe personnel-dependent. And you know, who ends up where, but regulatory policy. Um, President Trump has talked about cutting six regs for every one new reg. Um, he had a version of that in his first term, and we generally saw, um, a lightening of the regulatory burden.
We're going to continue to see that they, there are regulations that were finalized in the last six months of this year, um, that can be overturned under the Congressional Review Act, by legislation, by Congress with a simple majority. Um, we may see that. We may see regulations that were in proposed form, um, that had kind of stalled that we don't expect to see maybe finalized.
So, um, there's just lots of areas that have been impacted by regulations where we can see the pendulum maybe starting to come back the other way.
Chris Hyzy
Savita, talk us about two or three main opportunities for 2025, that you could see still unfolding that may be or already be starting.
Savita Subramanian
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that, you know, beyond mega-cap tech and within that cohort there are still certainly opportunities for investing. Um, but beyond this sort of tech-heavy market, we see a lot of opportunities within larger cap financials where, you know, we're finally at a point in the yield curve that has historically been bullish for financials.
Um, where we've seen large cap, regulated banks really avoid a lot of the the loan extensions that typically accompany a credit cycle. So they're, they're ending this credit cycle with really pristine balance sheets. And we're at a point where I think policymakers, regardless of their, um, their party, want to see growth continue in the U.S. They want to see manufacturing continue in the US, jobs creation, tech IP moved out of other parts of the world back to the U.S., and this requires lending. Who's left to lend? Well, there is this cohort that hasn't really participated in loan growth for the last 10 to 15 years that now could actually start to see loan growth. So I think this is a really, a pretty positive set up for large cap financials.
On top of that, you've got potential productivity changes. Um, when you think about generative AI, I think that the applications within financial services are really exciting. And you know, we're already trialing some of those, those applications. So, there is the opportunity for a sector that has really not taken advantage of a lot of the efficiency and productivity gains, um, ripe for really trimming some of that cost structure, some of that labor intensity.
And also seeing some loan growth. I think there that is an exciting part of the market. Um, granted, it's already run up a bit, but, uh, but I think there could be more to go as this story unfolds.
Chris Hyzy
Speaking of more to go, potentially lower regulation, steeper yield curve. There's been very little M&A over the past few years. Do you see an M&A cycle benefiting small and mid-caps?
Savita Subramanian
We do. And again, I think it's important to be selective. Um, but we do see the opportunity for some of the pent-up demand for M&A, to actually materialize. Um, again, I don't know if this is as dramatic as some are forecasting, because again, when you think about M&A cycles, another big component for a company to buy another company is the cost of capital and the hurdle rate. And when I look at the risks to all of these growth positive themes, I do think that the cost of capital is a big concern.
So, we really need to be vigilant on rates on, you know, kind of what's the r-return on capital of a project? And I think that's going to be more important for whether an M&A cycle really materializes, rather than just, regulations loosening.
Um, also this year we've actually seen pretty healthy M&A activity. So it's not like we're, we're seeing a lot of, you know, kind of pent up deal flow that's going to immediately materialize. I think we're actually seeing some reasonable momentum even this year, pre-election.
Chris Hyzy
And that's great. Jim, final, final question: What are some of the areas that you think will be very difficult to get through.
Jim Carlisle
Difficult to get through? Um, one, Republicans have talked about repealing the Inflation Reduction Act and you know, when you, uh, sort of drill down a little bit, um, you know, a lot of that investment is taking place in red states. Um, a lot of it is, you know, locked in already. Um, so I think we might see, you know, surgical, um, sort of work around the IRA electric vehicle credits might be number one on the list.
And then there's some programmatic, um, work around, uh, the IRA that the agencies were implementing that might come to a little bit of a, of a halt. So I think that's difficult to get done. Um, I do think there is, uh, an appetite for immigration reform. Um, and we saw development of a bipartisan Senate bill, uh, earlier in the year. Um, you can kind of point to areas where you think, um, a compromise and much needed reforms can get done. But when you start getting into it and, um, you've got an administration that may be in a different place, I mean, it gets difficult very quickly, but I think both parties would agree we really need it. Um, can you get there? That's hard.
Chris Hyzy
One thing we haven't talked about, and perhaps for another time, is there are still checks and balances, right? Checks and balances in the market, checks and balances in the government. And that's what ultimately creates this world where the greatest, adjusted risk return is what you'll ultimately end up seeing as money continues to move around the globe.
Chris Hyzy
Thank you, Savita. Thank you, Jim for the valuable insights and helping us get from where we are today to the other side.
And thanks to all of you for taking the time to watch. We hope you find these insights useful. As you weigh the potential impact of the changes we've discussed today on your portfolios, be sure to keep your long-term goals in mind.
Stay diversified and if you work with an advisor, ask for their help in navigating what's next, both the risks and the opportunities. And check back frequently for more insights leading up to our Get Ready for What's Next Outlook 2025 webcast, launching on December 12th.
Be sure to tune in.
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